Timestamps

00:00:00: Introduction 00:01:24: Book: Lois P Frankel PhD - Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office 00:04:44: Book: Joost Minnaar and Pim de Morree - Corporate Rebels 00:06:13: Book: Sally Helgesen - How Women Rise 00:06:46: Book: Susan Cain - Quiet 00:13:06: TED Talk: Elizabeth Gilbert - Your Elusive Creative Genius 00:16:49: TED Talk: Margaret Heffernan - The Human Skills We Need Right Now 00:21:41: Work Colleague: Fiona Stark - E.ON 00:25:04: Website: Maria Popova - The Marginalian 00:30:33: Special mention: Lyndy Payne and Judith Salinson 00:35:16: Final thoughts

Interview Transcription

Sarah Ellis: Hi, I'm Sarah. Helen Tupper: And I'm Helen. Sarah Ellis: And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where every week we share ideas and tools that we hope will really help you, and they do always help us, to navigate our Squiggly Careers with that bit more confidence, clarity and control. Helen Tupper: And we are together recording this podcast, as in, in the same room. Sarah Ellis: We're always together but we're usually not in the same place and I'm usually in my pyjamas! Helen Tupper: Always!  But yes, we're in a room.  So, if you can hear any background noise, it's because we've hired a room in the centre of London to record this, and our theme for today's podcast has been inspired by National Careers Week and also, International Women's Day, which is sort of a week I think now. Sarah Ellis: Or a month! Helen Tupper: Yeah, a month!  And we were thinking, what could we record that could reference those two moments in time?  We decided that we would focus this episode on the women who've made a difference to our development, both to recognise and appreciate the difference they've made, but also we thought that in sharing who those people were and how they've helped us, you might be able to see some of those people that might have helped you too and also seek out more of them; that's the point really.  If these are the sorts of people that make a difference to our development, how can we spend more time with people like that? Sarah Ellis: We decided that nothing was off limits, so we thought it could be books, it could be podcasts, it could be TED Talks, it could be people, people we've known, people we don't know.  Where do you want to start, Helen?  Do you want to start with the book that you chose? Helen Tupper: Okay, we'll start with the book.  So, the book that I have chosen, the book written by a woman, the woman is Lois P Frankel PhD, that has made a difference to my development is Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office.  And I bought this book in 2005.  The book came out in 2004. Sarah Ellis: You've kept it for a long time. Helen Tupper: And it has all of my notes in.  So imagine, this is 22-year-old Helen, I am working at Britvic in sales, I am eager and ambitious and I'm selling Pepsi out of my car to Cash and Carries around the country, but I wanted to do more than that.  I went away with my boyfriend at the time, my boyfriend, Daniel, who was a couple of years older than me, and he'd got an international trip to the US and I went with him and the company paid for me to go, they paid for my flight. Sarah Ellis: The good old days! Helen Tupper: I know, the good old days!  They paid for my flight and I just stayed in the hotel and he would go out to work, and I had nothing really to do.  And remember, no laptop, no phone. Sarah Ellis: Of course. Helen Tupper: 22-year-old Helen was ambitious; what does she do?  She went to Barnes & Noble.  Barnes & Noble was all cool.  I walked around, I remember going around there and then I bought this book, Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office, and I went and I think sat in a coffee shop and I went back to our hotel room.  And I remember weirdly trying to walk back to the hotel and realising that that place was not designed for walking.  There's not pavements -- Sarah Ellis: Yeah, sidewalks. Helen Tupper: -- and people were just looking at me really strangely like, "Get off the road!"  I didn't know how to get back to my hotel!  Anyway, me and this book went back to the hotel.  The reason this book influenced my development so much, it's a good book, it's very practical, it goes through common mistakes that women make at work and has lots of coaching tips to help you with them.  I think in some ways, some of it's a bit dated now, not surprisingly several years on.  But the reason this book made such a difference to my development is, ambitious 22-year-old Helen, I wasn't reading a lot that helped me see how I could get to where I want to be, and I read this book and I felt like, "That's the grown-up version of me, if I can do these things".  It didn't patronise me, it didn't say, "Well, you're only 22, so this isn't a book for people like you", it basically said, "If you're ambitious, then acknowledge that these are going to be some areas that you need to develop in, and go do it". I think reading books like that is so important so that you're not limited; there were no limits in that book.  It basically says, "If you can tackle these things, then you can achieve the things you want to do.  Regardless of who you are and where you work and what you've done, this book will help with your development".  And I think sitting in that hotel room, I saw the career that I wanted and a way that I could get myself there, not dependent on the company I was working for.  It didn't matter that I was selling Pepsi out of a boot in Sheffield, I could see the career I wanted to have in this book. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, we were talking about this earlier and to be honest, laughing a little bit at some of the content in the book, which has dated.  So, it's not necessarily a book we would recommend, because I feel like some of it just doesn't have the timeliness or relevance of today's context of careers.  But that doesn't mean that having books that show you the art of the possible aren't important. So, I think when Helen and I were going through this, because I was saying, "I had that book", and we can't remember whether I had that book because Helen had that book, because we knew each other at that time; or, did we both independently end up with that book?  And I think I actually talked about it in one of the podcasts recently, I'd read a book called Corporate Rebels, and that did something similar for me.  It showed me how to be ambitious, how to think about how you can increase your impact, and I think sometimes spending time with a person or some people that just expand your horizons, help you to zoom out, is really powerful, and it doesn't have to be a book.  But it seems like that's what that did for you. Helen Tupper: Some of the things that are in here that I ticked off at the time as, "This is an area of focus" -- Sarah Ellis: Yeah, we were looking at the notes, weren't we, earlier? Helen Tupper: Yeah, and my notes were "little me", I love it! Sarah Ellis: There were tests that you did and the little notes that you wrote! Helen Tupper: Yeah, it was quite interesting looking at what you highlight all those years ago.  But one of the mistakes, for example, "Couching statements as questions".  So rather, "Do you think I should do this?" and Sarah's going, "Well, yeah, of course", and it's almost like, "Why have you asked the question?" because probably if you were more confident, you'd just say, "I'm going to do this, have you got anything you'd like to add?" and it's being more assertive.  And then one of the other things that I ticked off as an action item was using touchy-feely language.  So, touchy feely language is things like, "It feels like we should…  I might…  You could consider…", and then reframing that as more assertive language, which is, "I intend to…  I would advise you to…". So, there is lots in here that is quite useful for your language.  I think a newer version of a book which is a similar kind of thing is Sally Helgesen, How Women Rise.  That's the one that I tend to recommend and it has lots of common mistakes that women might make and how to reframe them.  But I'd still say, there's lots in here.  One mistake that I think has dated is the, "Don't wear reading glasses around your neck"! Sarah Ellis: When we read that earlier, we were like, "What does that mean?" Helen Tupper: It's a bit about appearance and some of that stuff hasn't dated well, but there is a lot in here that's still practical and applicable.  What about you? Sarah Ellis: I chose a book called Quiet, which is by Susan Cain, and a bit like you, you know when you read the right book at the right time?  It's funny, isn't it; you look back over that book and I got it off my shelf again and there's very few books that have got as many Post-it Notes or underlines in as Quiet on my bookshelf.  I think I've read it probably three or four times, maybe not always start to finish, but I do keep coming back to it. One of the things that Susan Cain says quite early in the book is, "If this book does nothing else, I really hope it gives you a newfound sense of entitlement to be yourself.  I'll always be grateful for this book, because I think that's what this book did for me.  And I really like that Susan Cain isn't too simplistic about introversion versus extroversion.  She definitely isn't trying to label you or put you in a box.  What she is doing is describing some different behaviours and characteristics, in terms of how you behave at work and how you show up, and then what that might mean for you in terms of some of your choices. I think reading it really then impacted almost how I lived my life, which is quite a bit statement to make, isn't it, having read a book?  And I think it really helped to set me up for success and it stopped me comparing myself to some of my peers, to some of the leaders that I worked with who I really admired, but were much more extrovert than me.  So, I've got a real track record of working for and with some real extroverts.  And actually, when you read Quiet, it's not a surprise, because extroverts and introverts make really good teams because they approach problems in the world in quite a different way.  It's not very surprising that I get on really well with some very extroverted people.  But I do think early in my career, I definitely fell into the trap of thinking, "I need to be like that in order to be successful", and then that does mean you spend too much time pretending, too much time with a persona, and that is exhausting and also then very hard to be consistently at your best. She introduced me to this one idea, and I think to this day I'm good at doing this and I'm always proud of my ability to do this, this idea of your restorative niche, which is just because you're an introvert or just because you're an extrovert, it's not an excuse.  So, just because I'm an introvert I can't then say, "Helen, I'm never going to go to a big event with lots of people I don't know", if that's part of the work that you do.  So, I would recognise that sometimes, doing that is important for the work that we do.  But what I would now recognise is what you might put in front and behind that event to make sure that then you can be brilliant at that event, and that you can actually even go as far as to enjoy that event, so making sure that you've got just a bit of time probably by yourself before you walk into that room, making sure that after you've spent time in that room, you're not doing exactly the same thing again. So for me, to restore myself, I now know what that looks like, spending time by myself, spending time in very small groups, going for some walks, being outside, not being in the same place for too long, which I always find really difficult.  And so, I think it just gave me a lot of confidence.  I think I read that book and I was much more confident in who I was.  And then, when you're more confident in who you are, you use your strengths more and you're loads better at your job anyway, so it's a smart thing to do and you're more successful, whatever that looks like for you. There's even some small things and I'd perhaps have shared it before, but one of the things that I do, not as much as I used to, but I'm somebody who blushes.  And there's even a section in there about blushing and about how blushing is not a bad thing.  So, I used to really beat myself up for blushing, because I'd be like, "People will think I've not got gravitas or I'm not very credible", and she talks about it as actually, "It's better to care too much than to care too little, and often blushing shows humility and modesty", and the research shows that when people see someone blush, actually they view that person more positively, not less positively, in the main, because you can see that someone cares or you can see that they've got self-awareness. I think that sounds like a really small thing, but it was something I was so self-conscious about, and also I felt I couldn't really do anything about, because it's just something that happened, you can't really control.  And obviously, it always happens at the moment you don't want it to happen.  So, I just came away from that going, "Okay, well I don't need to change.  If anything, I need to do a better job of being myself", and I think that's a really powerful thing to come across somebody who gives you that sense of newfound freedom in who you are. Helen Tupper: So, I have a familiarity with the work around introversion and quiet, and I think I've watched TED talks and you and I have talked about it before, but I haven't read that book.  Do you think, as somebody who is very different to you, that I would benefit from reading that book? Sarah Ellis: Yes, I think everyone would benefit from reading Quiet, because you might have less "Aha!" moments maybe than I had, because you self-identify with some of the things that she describes; but also, there are parts of introversion that I don't identify with that I go -- so sometimes introverts are less likely to enjoy public speaking.  I enjoy public speaking, it's a really big part of the work that we do.  And so again, it's not like you're trying to go almost, "We're all the same, these introverts; we're all the same, these extroverts", but she talks about extroversion as well.  So, I feel like I understand extroverts more also, having spent time reading the book. And her point is as well, essentially, that we will all get on better and be more empathetic and be more collaborative if we can understand all of our differences.  So, we've talked about it before, but you understand my need to sometimes go off by myself; and you understand that sometimes I'll disappear off for a walk.  It might feel alien to you, because you would never do it, and some of the things that you do feel alien to me when you're like, "I'm going out to a party", and I'm like, "I'm going to put my pyjamas on".  And she does actually talk about how introverts do really look forward to the moment that they put their pyjamas on, because they are usually by themselves and at home. Helen Tupper: Why do you think I bought you pyjamas as a present once?! Sarah Ellis: I know, you did buy me pyjamas, yeah; I like those pyjamas!  And so, it's less about -- I feel like she's not trying to change anyone, she's almost just going, "How do we help everyone bring the best of them?"  And maybe you don't need to read the book but I think if everybody watched her TED Talk, it probably wouldn't be a bad thing. Helen Tupper: Okay, so shall we move onto another woman who's influenced our work and made a difference to our development?  So, mine is Elizabeth Gilbert.  I love Elizabeth Gilbert. Sarah Ellis: Good choice. Helen Tupper: Thank you.  In particular, the first thing that I saw from her -- well actually, no, I'm trying to work out what came first; me reading Eat, Pray, Love, or me watching her TED Talk where she references it, because a TED Talk that I wanted to share with people, because Eat, Pray, Love is a great book, but the TED Talk is amazing.  It's from 14 years ago and it's called Your Elusive Creative Genius, and I love everything about this TED Talk, I have watched it so many times.  I love that she rocks up on a stage and she looks like she's just got out of bed, I just really love that she's just got her hair all messy and she's just got comfy clothes on and she's just like, "Take me as I am".  I really, really like the confidence in her. But her words are brilliant.  Obviously, she's just amazing at words, so I just listen to her language and I'm like, "You used some really good, lovely words in this".  But the main premise of the talk and the difference it made to my development is, she talks about the idea of your -- it is for this idea of the pressure that creative people, whether you're writing or producing a podcast, or whatever, I think we're all creative; but the pressure that you put on yourself that when you've done something good, you've got to do better, and I think a lot of people have this.  You've succeeded at something and you've got a new job and it always has to be better and better and better, or you're not doing well at work.  What she talks about is almost to try to separate yourself from your success a little bit. So for example, she had this runaway success with Eat, Pray, Love and she said, "The likelihood is I am never going to have a book as successful as that again.  But I'm in my 40s, I'm hopefully going to work until I'm 80, so what am I supposed to do?  Am I supposed to be depressed for the next 40 years that I've done my best work?"  And she says, "You almost have to see your success as a situation.  It came to you in that moment, but you are not defined by it".  We had Squiggly Career, it was a bestselling book, we may never have a bestselling book again; does that mean we're not going to do brilliant work and help people with their career development?  No.  Does that mean that I'm not good or successful?  No, because that was a success that was part of me but is not just me. You watch that talk and her eloquence and her humility and her humanness, I'm just sucked in.  It makes me want to do more; I watched that and it makes me want to do more, but not for the point of performing or succeeding, just because she sort of gives you permission to go and do stuff because you like doing it, you like working.  Make work about what you enjoy doing, not what work is supposed to be in terms of your success and status, and all that kind of stuff.  Highly recommend. Sarah Ellis: It's interesting, isn't it, just listening to you, how when you do come across a person or people who have that kind of impact, it sounds like a really propelling impact.  Even just listening to you, it almost inspires action, whatever that action looks like for you.  There's almost a before and after, who you were before you saw that TED Talk and who you were after it. Helen Tupper: I don't remember it all the time, but then I watch it again, someone will ask me, "What's your favourite TED Talk?" and I'll rewatch it just to make sure it's still useful and relevant to me.  And every time I watch it, I'm like, "I want to go and create something!" every time.  It gives me that inspiration and that energy. Sarah Ellis: I'm going to watch it on the way home today.  I have watched it, but a long time ago.  It's not one that I've rewatched, so you're now making me think, "On the tube on the way home, I'll watch it again". Helen Tupper: Do it, do it! Sarah Ellis: So, I've chosen someone who has multiple TED Talks.  She has been on our podcast before and she has books, because she needs to put her brilliance in lots of places, and that's Margaret Heffernan.  She has a TED Talk called The Human Skills We Need Right Now, she also has another one called Dare To Disagree.  I particularly like her book, which is called Uncharted, but she's also written about things like Wilful Blindness.  And I think what I really like about Margaret's work and her approach is, she is simple and direct but still positive.  She acknowledges the challenges and I feel like she's really connected to what is going on in the world of work, and you can start to connect the dots to careers.  But just generally, she's good at spotting and understanding what's happening. One of the things that she says in books and a few TED Talks that's always really stuck with me is, "We used to live in a complicated world", and when you're in a complicated world, it is still hard, but it's more predictable.  You go, "I can anticipate this is going to happen, and then I can start to put some structures in place for how to deal with it when it happens again".  So she's like, "Things used to be complicated", so we would say, "Ladderlike worlds were complicated", but she's like, "Now we're in a world of complexity".  And in complexity, it's very difficult to predict.  Apparently, even people who do this for a living are only prepared to predict 400 days roughly, apparently; that's with any level of accuracy.  And she talks about the amount of change and uncertainty and ambiguity. Then, she starts to suggest some of the skills and the approaches that we need to take.  And I feel like her perspective has actually really permeated the work that we do.  I think she's more of a thought leader across more categories and sectors than the work that we do, but I think we've borrowed her brilliance and applied it to careers in three particular areas.  One, she talks about experiments, and actually that's probably one of the things I admire about her.  I feel like she spots and pioneers things and then we all have to catch up with her.  And I think we're quite good at being early adopters for things, but she was talking about experiments a long time before we started to talk about it a lot in the last couple of years; but she was way ahead of that, and the importance of having a hypothesis, knowing it's okay to fail, but being really clear about what those experiments are, things that we've talked about before. She talks about optimism in a lovely way.  There is a great quote that we sometimes use for Margaret Heffernan where she says, "Optimists aren't idiots", which is just very her, and she talks about they're just better at solving problems, spotting opportunities and asking for help, and you just feel that they're three skills that are really important for us in our Squiggly Careers.  And then she has this phrase about, "We all need to get better at building relationships beyond the ones that we need right now", and she's talking about again more generally in the context of CEOs and in organisations.  But again I see in careers that if we limit our relationships to the ones that we need for our day job, we limit our learning and our development. So, I just feel like, you know when you think, "Every time I spend time with Margaret Heffernan, whether that's the one opportunity I did have to actually talk to her, but whether that's watching her TED Talks, reading her book, you always feel like it's time well spent".  Your return on investment for that time is always high, even if you can't spot it in that moment.  It's not like I go through it and go, "It's action, action, action", but I think her ideas and her thought leadership stick, well they certainly do for me, and they've stayed with me and they've influenced me and I think our work in a very practical way. Helen Tupper: The other thing that I really like about her is, in a time of life when influence is so much projected through social media, she doesn't play that game. Sarah Ellis: Not at all! Helen Tupper: Her work just speaks for itself.  She's not there posting her own quotes on -- Sarah Ellis: No, we're posting her own quotes! Helen Tupper: Yeah, we're posting the quotes for her!  I just really respect and think, "Gosh, isn't that the power of brilliant work, that it speaks for itself and other people share it on your behalf?" Sarah Ellis: I remember when I interviewed her for our podcast and it was lockdown one in the UK during COVID, and I was just chatting to her like, "What are you doing?"  And what she was doing was not promoting her work, which actually she talks about in one of her TED Talks, "There will be a pandemic".  She's like, "We know that, we know that's true".  So, she wasn't out there being, "I told you so".  What she was doing was collecting food locally and delivering it to grannies in the community and was setting up some sort of system so that everybody had got the food.  She was almost using her energy in that way.  And she just has this style where you sense she doesn't take herself too seriously, even though she takes her work seriously, and I always really admire that in people. Helen Tupper: So, I've got one more, how many more have you got? Sarah Ellis: One more. Helen Tupper: Okay, one more.  Mine is a person in a company that I've worked with; I'm intrigued about yours.  So, my person is a lady called Fiona Stark; Sarah and I haven't talked about this.  So, Fiona was on the board at E.ON when I worked there and in a hierarchical sense, she was many levels above me.  In fact, I think she was probably my manager's manager's manager's peer, that kind of a thing, so a good couple of levels above me, and not somebody that I would normally have access to.  I think she was probably the only woman on the board, she represented legal and CSR and lots of things with that role.  It wasn't what I was doing at the time, so I wouldn't have really spent time with her, both because of her level and because of her discipline.  And a manager that I've mentioned many times before I feel connected me to her, because I think he took my ambition and saw a woman doing well and he made that connection. I remember that first conversation and she didn't treat me like a junior person in the organisation.  She was curious about my career, she was supportive of my ambition, and I stayed connected to her afterwards.  Then, when I went to go and be a trustee of a charity, she was on the board of that charity. Sarah Ellis: Oh, that's a nice sort of circle of life! Helen Tupper: I know, a Squiggly connection!  And she definitely sponsored and supported me in that role.  So, I guess the reason she made a difference to my development, if I just reflected on it, was she sort of just treated me as a peer.  Being curious about someone's career, treating them as a peer and sponsoring and supporting them where you can, I think that is a privilege of being senior, and she took that privilege seriously and she spotted someone she could support and she was really generous. I remember, I went to London to have lunch with her, and this was before I was in London a lot, and we went to this little Italian restaurant, and I felt important, you know, that someone senior was spending their time with me and was interested in what I was doing.  I think those moments make a big difference for your development, and it has just made me think now, I think I'm in a position of privilege, we run our own company, we have the ability to support other people; be a Fiona, find a Fiona! Sarah Ellis: Yes, be a Fiona. Helen Tupper: Be a Fiona, even just to one woman.  Find that person who is not doing what you're doing and maybe feels quite far away from what you're doing today, and be a Fiona, give them your time, treat them as a peer and support and sponsor them where you can, and you might not realise the benefit of that conversation now; but 5, 10, 15 years down the line, I bet that person will be better because of that time that you spent with them talking to them about their development. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, that must be really lovely for her, you should tell her. Helen Tupper: I will, I'll message her, I'll say, "I talked about you today".  She's also super-lovely. Sarah Ellis: And it also shows how those conversations can be moments that matter, but in hindsight.  So, I can imagine at the time, I bet she didn't give loads of thought to that conversation, she would have just moved on with her day and she would have been very busy, but it really made a difference to you.  And often, we're talking about building relationships beyond the ones we need right now; it's so easy to not do that when you're busy, to think, "I've not got time" or, "That's not an important thing", but those sorts of conversations, you never quite know where they lead.  And again, they can help to inspire us or they can help to get us unstuck.  It's just somebody, like you said, listening and asking those curious questions. Helen Tupper: What about you; who's your third person? Sarah Ellis: Well, I've picked a third person and then I do think we should give a Squiggly shoutout to two other people at the end of the podcast, because all the three people actually, Margaret Heffernan, I suppose I could say I know a little bit because I've had one conversation, but all the three people I've chosen, I don't know.  But the Squiggly shoutout people, we both know. So, I've picked a lady called Maria Popova, and when I first came across Maria's work, she ran a website, which is probably the best way to describe it, called Brain Pickings.  And Brain Pickings is now actually called Marginalian, and I think I'm pronouncing that right, as in Marginal, and then I-A-N at the end. Helen Tupper: I would go Marginalian. Sarah Ellis: That's what I've gone with, and I say it hesitantly because I'm not sure!  And to be honest, the point is it probably is meant to be hard to pronounce, given the content of the website.  And I was thinking, "Why did she have a big impact on me in my career?"  I think it was because she showed me that it was good to have a super-skill about curiosity.  I mean, I think I'm curious in the work that I do and who I am, I think that's a strength that I've got, but you know there are go-to gurus.  There's good and then there's good, and I feel like Maria Popova is incredible at collecting dots from so many different places and spaces.  She's the ultimate polymath.  Every time you spend time on her site, you discover something new, or it introduces you to something you wouldn't normally come across. I just remember at one point in my career, and probably you're in a very busy day job, you've got lots of structure and probably not that much freedom to go outside the confines of what you are there to do, and I think this really helped me to see the art of the possible, and it reminded me that there's a world out there that we should never forget.  It doesn't matter how consuming our jobs are or how much we love them, you can learn a lot from spending time reading a poem that you'd never normally read, or I remember learning about growth mindset and then she wrote about growth mindset, and being, "That's the best description of growth mindset I've seen", even though she's not in a career or a business world.  I suspect that's the last place that she would actually want to be. I thought I'd particularly mention an article that you can go on and read, called The 16 Life-Learnings From 16 Years.  So, she's been running this site for a long time and she's done a book called Figuring, which is like a massive book with loads of her musings and reflections, you can sign up to a newsletter.  But in this article, she shares all these thoughts about what has she commonly observed.  I suppose she must start to spot lots of threads and themes, and I've just picked out three which I thought I would mention.  One of them is, "Do nothing for prestige or status or money or approval alone", and I was like, I think that's probably a good rule for life.  The second one, "Expect anything worthwhile to take time". Helen Tupper: I like that one. Sarah Ellis: And then the third one, which I am going to read out, because I don't want to get it wrong, "Question your maps and models of the Universe, both inner and outer, and continually test them against the raw input of reality".  You can go on, and so for each of these ones, there's links and it's almost a rabbit hole, but in the most positive sense.  Almost, it's designed to be a rabbit hole because there, she'll be like, "Here's a wonderful poem about pi", and you're like, "Okay, now I'm going to read a wonderful poem!"  Then even I bought you for your son, Henry, a book about a snail that she wrote with incredible illustrations.  And I wouldn't have found that book or bought that book if it hadn't been for her. Also, I quite like the fact that she is quite hard, a bit like Margaret Heffernan actually, a bit of a theme, she's quite hard to find elsewhere.  She puts all of her energy and her input into Marginalian and she's got her newsletter, but she's not out there doing two TED Talks a year, she's not trying to churn out lots of things and actually, somewhere in one of her 16 things, she definitely talks about, "Quality matters" and we need to take time and we need to think things through, and there's always a temptation, isn't there, to be quick and superficial and, like you say, to do more.  And I feel like every time I spend time with her in any way, it slows you down, it makes you think more deeply, it makes you question what's important.  She really encourages you to change your mind, lots of qualities that I think feel actually important in our careers as well, like it is okay to change your mind. Helen Tupper: I haven't spent a lot of time with her work for a while.  I used to read Brain Pickings all the time, I didn't even know that it had had a rebrand actually.  So, just listening to you now, it makes me think I want to spend some more time with her; because, what it almost used to make me think was both the curiosity, like isn't curiosity great when it's unconstrained; it always made me think that.  But also generosity; I always remember feeling when I was reading it, how generous she is. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, it's incredible. Helen Tupper: I remember there was like, "If you'd like to give £1", like basically, "I do this on my own time because I love doing it, and if you'd like to give £1, that helps Brain Pickings".  I always just got the sense of the amount of time and thought that went into what she was sharing.  I think when I think about what we try to do with Amazing If, you look at those generosity-based businesses and you think, "That's what I want us to become, a generosity-based business, where we put stuff out into the world that helps people, regardless of where people are or what they do".  She put that work out into the world to help people, didn't she, and yeah, I will reconnect with it a little bit as a result of this. Sarah Ellis: Then finally, we both wanted to give a bit of a Squiggly shoutout to two women who we both know and have spent a lot of time with really over the years, and I don't know how old they would be now, but probably in their 80s-ish. Helen Tupper: Yes, I guess so, yes. Sarah Ellis: So, two ladies, Lyndy Payne and Judith Salinson.  Lyndy and Judith are both judges for an award that Helen and I both won; not together, we don't do everything together! Helen Tupper: You won first! Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and we weren't the only winners as well.  But it was sort of an award that you could apply for essentially to get money to go and do development.  So, you can imagine why Helen and I were like, "Yes, please!" Helen Tupper: "Great!" Sarah Ellis: And we both went to do different things with that award.  But I think the reason we wanted to give them both a mention is to this point again about people just supporting you to do the things that you want to do.  I really remember being interviewed by both of them and it's incredibly intimidating, because you were like, "Wow, these people have done amazing things.  They've also done hard things at a time when it would have been particularly hard to do them, you know, run companies, build companies when no women were doing that, and probably not in a particularly supportive environment to make those things happen.  So, their achievements are sort of awe-inspiring. So, you're initially thinking, "I don't deserve to be here".  Any imposter syndrome you might have definitely kicks in.  And all I ever remember about Lyndy and Judith is them just going, "Well, how could you be even more ambitious?  How could you be even better; how could you be even bigger?" and just wanting you to have an incredible impact and go, "Well, what can we do to help; how can we help; what do you need?"  And they both met us through that interview process and then they connected the dots that Helen and I were running a company together, very much on the side at that point, and they just sort of adopted us!  I was like, "I mean, I'll absolutely take it!" They'd be like, "Shall we take you out?" and I was like, "Okay, great, thank you", and they'd take us to really nice places -- Helen Tupper: Where they'd know everyone there! Sarah Ellis: -- where they would know people and they'd probably go quite regularly, I guess, and they'd know exactly what they wanted from the menus.  And I always remember thinking when I went to those, I would honestly still do this now, I'd always be smart, I feel like I should be smart for those breakfasts, lunches or dinners, smarter than I might normally be.  I couldn't imagine wearing trainers, for some reason, to those things. Helen Tupper: No, I wouldn't; I mean, I wouldn't anyway! Sarah Ellis: Not that you would anyway!  But I don't think that would be the day to wear my new Nike trainers that I've got on today.  And what was amazing is I feel like they would just sit there and they just celebrated our achievements for us.  So, they'd be like, "Bravo!"  That was the word, "Bravo, Helen and Sarah!". Helen Tupper: "Bravo, girls!" Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and so they would go basically, "List your achievements, we are going to celebrate those achievements, and then we're going to ask you questions about how you can be even better".  And actually, they do ask you quite difficult questions, but they're so supportive about them, they never feel confronting in a, "Well, why haven't you done this?" it's much more because you know that they are so on your side and they really are championing you and want you to succeed.  But they would pick holes a bit sometimes.  They might go, "Have you thought about this?  What about that?  How might that bit work?" and they were very direct because I think they probably have had to be.  So, there's no beating around the bush with things, they would just be like, "What's your revenue now and what's your profitability?" Helen Tupper: Yeah, absolutely. Sarah Ellis: But what's funny, she'd go from one minute it being, "Do you want some Champagne?" and I'd be like, "Oh, no, I don't drink", and then the next minute, "What's your profitability?" and you'd be like, "Let me just get the spreadsheet"!  But I just think over the years consistently, they have shown up for us.  And actually, we haven't seen them in person for a little while because of the pandemic, so it's prompted me just recording this podcast to think, "I just want to reconnect with them both and just see how they're both doing", and let the impact that they both had on us.  So, I'll always be grateful to both Lyndy and Judith. Helen Tupper: I think I also hope that in, what would that be; 40 years' time? Sarah Ellis: What, do you want us to be the next Lyndy and Judith? Helen Tupper: Yeah, I do! Sarah Ellis: And I'd wear trainers though when we do it! Helen Tupper: No, you can wear trainers!  But yeah, just to be those people that see and support and sponsor.  But we could do that now, we don't need to wait until we're Lyndy and Judith, but I just look at the impact that that has on us, and it doesn't have to be every month, it doesn't even have to be every year.  It's just taking that time and making it all about those people and giving them nothing but support to just encourage what they're already doing. You know sometimes we think, well I do, that, "The help I give, is it solving problems?" it's a very active kind of help.  But actually, that isn't an active kind of help but it's a very important kind of help.  Lots of people have already got brilliant ideas and are already doing things brilliantly, they might just need a bit of a boost that comes from your belief, and I think that's what they do. Sarah Ellis: And so, if you've been listening to this today, I think the question that we would want to leave you with is, "Who are the people who are making a difference to your development?"  Obviously, they don't have to be women; we just thought, you know, it's International Women's Day, week, month, hopefully all the time!  Let's hope at one point we don't need it in quite the same way.  So, it felt quite nice to put that frame on it for today's conversation. But I think always asking yourself that question, us even revisiting it for today really made me think about, who's made a difference to me in the past; who's making a difference for me today; am I still spending enough time with people who are making a difference to my development; have I got the right range of people; and also, have I got enough difference? Actually, I was looking at my bookshelf in preparation for this and I was thinking, "I have got a lot of books by men".  It's really stark.  I have all of my sort of development, business books together and I reckon 10% of those books are by women.  And Quiet by Susan Cain, like I say, it transformed my life, so it stands out on that bookshelf, but I probably need to spend a bit more time reading more books by women, given especially that's what we do.  So, I just think stopping to consider, you don't have to do books, it could be TED Talks, it can just be websites, it could be newsletters, there are so many different ways to learn; but whatever works for you and whoever works for you, just spending some time with people who can propel your Squiggly Career is just always worth it. Helen Tupper: So, thank you so much for listening today.  We will summarise our recommendations, some questions for you to reflect on, in the PodSheet.  The PodSheet, you can download from our website, which is amazingif.com.  Just go to the podcast page and you will see it there.  You can also sign up for PodMail there, which is a weekly email that comes out every Tuesday and it pulls together all the different resources that we produce on a weekly basis, one way that we hope we are generous to help you with your career development.  If you have feedback or ideas on future episodes, you can always get in touch.  We're helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com.  I think we will leave it there for today, so thank you so much for listening, everybody.  Bye for now. Sarah Ellis: Bye for now.