Good Boss, Bad Boss Joei Chan

Author, founder two times over, and marketing titan Rand Fishkin joins me on Good Boss Bad Boss. In our chat, Rand didn’t shy away his own experiences, including the emotional challenges he faced when leaving Moz.

What stands out is Rand’s strong advocacy for transparency in business. He believes this openness has been critical in fostering trust with employees and customers, although he knows potential drawbacks of sharing sensitive information do exist.

Where he has landed in his journey has brought him to prioritize personal relationships over hustle culture, the team at SparkToro has created a unique working atmosphere that values a relaxed environment and flexible schedules.



Jump into the conversation:

(02:05) Meet Rand

(07:30) Hard lessons from Moz

(9:57) Rand’s case for transparent leadership

(21:40) Rand’s ex-CEO and ex-best friend

(23:32) Relationships > Business

(27:56) What is chill work?



Connect with Joei: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeichan/
Subscribe to GBBB’s Substack: https://joeichan.substack.com/



Produced by Share Your Genius https://www.shareyourgenius.com/

Artistic direction by Alexandre Lenoble https://www.alexandrelenoble.com/


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From negotiating for my very first salary to having to deny an employee’s raise request, I have been on one heck of a ride when it comes to learning about negotiations.

What can you negotiate for? What challenges can arise in the negotiation process? What makes this process less stressful? I’m sharing what’s worked for me to help you negotiate, as an employee and as a manager. This process doesn’t always have to be painful—it should be a helpful moment each time it happens in your career.

Listen in for:
💡 The importance of negotiating from both an employee and employer perspective
💰 Strategies to confidently negotiate for what you deserve, for salary, promotion, and benefits
🌟 The techniques that helped me secure those pay bumps and promotions in my own career
🎯 How to navigate tough negotiations when you're calling the shots as a manager

Jump into the conversation:

(00:28) My first negotiation
(03:00) Negotiation learnings from becoming a manager
(04:40) Negotiations gone wrong
(09:10) It all comes down to this.



Connect with me: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeichan/
Subscribe to GBBB’s Substack: https://joeichan.substack.com/

Produced by Share Your Genius https://www.shareyourgenius.com/

Artistic direction by Alexandre Lenoble https://www.alexandrelenoble.com/


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Did you know the average manager doesn’t receive leadership training until they’ve managed for 10 years or more 😱. So what do you need to know (or wish you’d known) early on in your journey?

Joei sits down with Alma’s Senior Director of Demand Gen, Carmen Cedeño to talk about just that. Carmen has been in managerial roles for over 7 years, so Joei asks her to reflect on asking for her first managerial role and the lessons learned. She shares her own stories and lessons with great insight, self-awareness, and vulnerability Some of the lessons she learned include:

1️⃣ Finding the Right Balance: As a new manager, it's natural to feel the need to advocate for your team and protect them from questions or doubts from your boss. But actually transparent communication and honesty keep your team on track and focused on what’s best for the business. Which is actually best for your team, too.

2️⃣ Managing Other Managers is About Empowerment: When you’re managing multiple people with their own teams, remember to allow space for different leadership styles and cultures. Looking ahead to keep developing these managers is more important than micro-managing their teams for them!

3️⃣ Use Frameworks for Effective Communication: To communicate clearly, especially for people who don’t know you as well, utilizing frameworks and systems can help immensely. Carmen uses the SBI framework (Situation, Behavior, Intent) to help stay transparent and honest (especially in those harder conversations).

Jump into the conversation:

(01:45) Meet Carmen

(07:40) The biggest hurdles when jumping from IC to manager

(18:45) Carmen’s pivotal moment as a leader

(25:00) Transparency in the hard moments



Connect with Joei: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeichan/
Subscribe to GBBB’s Substack: https://joeichan.substack.com/

Produced by Share Your Genius https://www.shareyourgenius.com/

Artistic direction by Alexandre Lenoble https://www.alexandrelenoble.com/


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As a team lead, making unpopular decisions is hard.

You don’t want to let your team down, create division, or jeopardize your company’s growth.

So what do you? Is it your team against the world? Do you actually make the hard choices? In this episode, Joei walks you through the first hard decisions she didn’t make—and how that negatively affected her team and her management skills in the beginning. She learned quickly (once she noticed she was acting like Michael Scott 😂).

Here are a few quick tips Joei learned:


Reorient yourself as a company lead, not just a team lead.
Share as much context as you can.
Take the emotion out of it.

Jump into the conversation:

(00:19) The Us vs. Them mentality that failed

(02:50) Team lead vs. company lead

(05:00) Joei = Michael Scott?

(7:25) Lessons learned + new way to handle tough decisions



Connect with Joei: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeichan/
Subscribe to GBBB’s Substack: https://joeichan.substack.com/

Produced by Share Your Genius https://www.shareyourgenius.com/

Artistic direction by Alexandre Lenoble https://www.alexandrelenoble.com/


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Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/goodbossbadboss/message

Ever dream about being the boss of bosses? Like being the CEO. You make all the decisions, you’ve built your dream team, and your life is good, right?

Well, as the title suggests...the reality is slightly different.

Enter Devin Bramhall, former CEO of content agency, Animalz, growth advisor, and host of the Don’t Say Content podcast. She shares her personal stories of her worst bosses, her come up from marketing manager to CEO, and the lessons she’s learned about building teams and creating real impact from the top down. The kicker? It was HARD. The hard decisions, tough moments, and lessons to learn don’t stop when you reach the top. But that’s what makes it one of the most impactful and rewarding jobs out there.

A few things she’s learned:

1️⃣ Making unpopular decisions is necessary and good. This often means taking risks and navigating through challenges and uncertainties. Stepping back and thinking of the whole business first is key—your employees cannot thrive without a thriving business.
2️⃣ Communication and boundaries are extremely important. How much transparency is too much? How much emotion should you share? These are balancing acts a CEO must play and keep in place to navigate the complex issues that will arise.
3️⃣ Leadership demands constant adaptability and problem-solving. CEOs must navigate through uncertainty and changing circumstances constantly. They need to think on their feet, find creative solutions, and guide their team through ambiguity while maintaining a sense of stability and direction.

Jump into the conversation:

(03:17) How Devin moved up quickly

(05:19) Asking for her boss’s job

(07:11) Managing a team as the CEO

(12:52) Leading with trust isn’t always the best

(14:52) Internal comms need to be strategic

(16:38) Being a female CEO

(18:50) Different types of good manager profiles

(20:55) Devin’s bad bosses

(23:23) Why we don’t make progress on DE&I

(26:27) Hierarchy and org charts are made up
(31:30) Rapid Fire Questions



Connect with Joei: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeichan/
Subscribe to GBBB’s Substack: https://joeichan.substack.com/
Leave a message for Joei: https://www.speakpipe.com/goodbossbadboss

Check out Devin’s podcast, Don’t Say Content: https://www.dontsaycontent.com/

Produced by Share Your Genius https://www.shareyourgenius.com/

Artistic direction by Alexandre Lenoble https://www.alexandrelenoble.com/


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Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/goodbossbadboss/message

Ever wondered what managers don't usually talk about when it comes to hiring and firing? 🤔

Well, you're about to find out.

In this episode, Joei opens up about her journey of hiring and firing her way to building the dream team. It hasn’t always been easy, and she shares 3 main takeaways she’d love to pass on so that you don’t have to repeat her mistakes.


Define strategy BEFORE you hire. 🌟 Hiring for unfamiliar scopes can be tricky. It’s essential to align on the strategy and employee profile you need before you get the new hire in the door. No intention = no results.
Embrace failure without fear. 😱 We've all been there—feeling the pressure to prove ourselves as managers. Joei learned the hard way that rushing into hiring decisions with too much optimism can lead to disappointment. It's important to have open communication with your boss and align on evaluation criteria before hiring.
Define success and protect your team. 🛡️ Aligning with your boss on evaluation criteria helps avoid misunderstandings and miscommunication later on. There are moments when we need to have those necessary but tough conversations with our team and our boss. Being a great leader means protecting your team while maintaining honesty and transparency.

Whether you're a seasoned manager, just starting out or simply curious about the behind-the-scenes of leadership, you're in for a treat as Joei lays it all out on the table.

Jump into the conversation:

(01:00) A Listener’s Story

(03:00) Define Strategy Before Hiring

(10:00) An Outsider’s Perspective

(17:00) Joei’s Biggest Takeaways



Connect with Joei: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeichan/
Subscribe to GBBB’s Substack: https://joeichan.substack.com/



Produced by Share Your Genius https://www.shareyourgenius.com/

Artistic direction by Alexandre Lenoble https://www.alexandrelenoble.com/


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Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/goodbossbadboss/message